Transcript of a video interview with the designer of the current British Army camouflage pattern, which I typed up.

My apologies for the right-hand margin being off the screen. Maybe you can select all, copy, and put into your own document. 

Logan McGrath: With when you joined the British army, what did you believe that you were going to be doing? I know you mentioned earlier that you wanted to go into the engineers because you had some prior experience with diving. What was kind of your goal?
Matthew Tressider: I suppose as a fairly young and naive individual, the old cry travel the world meet interesting people and shoot them as the standard joke. But actually it was more, I wanted to join the army because it was fun. It was interesting. It was something which I think I'd always wanted to do. So discovering that they actually, because I was working as a commercial diver before I joined the army. So discovering that the army had divers was a revelation and meant that I could transfer that sort of skill set in. Although funny enough, I never actually did see the diving in the army. But I suppose it was sort of the opportunity to do my bit for the country, you know, because it was the height of the Cold War. The threat was real, very real at the time. Lots of saber rattling going on. So I felt that we're actually, you know, ought to do my part. But also chances to do lots of fun stuff. Play with explosives, drive tanks, all of which I did. And excuse to run around the countryside, you know, shooting guns off left front, and doing that sort of stuff. So yeah, the average young man's basic desires. Totally, totally. You know, ended up being based in Germany as part of what somebody described as the largest formation of highest functioning and fittest alcoholics there were going because in Germany, but if you if you weren't on exercise and you weren't on leave
or climbing mountains, going sailing or scuba diving, then you were drinking. And actually very often when all of the above were going on anyway, there was a lot of alcohol consumed in those days, but you were fit and you could get away with it. Oh yeah, Germany has not changed much since then. No, no, it hasn't. So yeah, so that's that's how I started my time and then sort of progressed on from there. And then eventually I wound up in Afghanistan in 2008, when as I said when we were
chatting earlier, things were particularly kinetic and gnarly. And a friend of mine was running with defense clothing team and we were interacting on a daily basis about what improvements could you make because we were getting lots of feedback in the theatre about what wasn't working, you know, sort of quality issues, trousers falling apart in the absolutely incredibly challenging conditions.
One of the problems we had was boots fall in the past as well. And we were asked by the boot manufacturer to send a sample of sand back. So they could analyze the sand and we sent this back and the the coin came back. They had never seen anything like this. The sand was so incredibly abrasive in Afghanistan. It's really sort of all the grains of sand are really sharp edged. So it's cutting through the threads of the boots, you know, the stitching that was holding it together. So that's it. It was absolutely, you know, it couldn't believe it, but they said, yeah, no, genuinely, it's true. It was Kevlar thread then, you know, still complaining.
But sort of, but the conditions were so extreme as you picked up on your earlier video about, about MTP camouflage. The troops are going through, yeah, from desert into, yeah, almost primary jungle into urban areas, into farmland. So in doing that, they're crossing ditches, they're they're going through shrubs so that clothing was getting torn apart, they're, you know, getting soaked. So things were sort of, yeah, lasting, but if you're lucky, it's about
the power of trousers to last a fortnight, you know, they were falling apart really quickly. So as a result, I was having a constant dialogue with this friend from mine and he said, oh, I'm leaving clothing team just after you come back. Yeah, if you're interested, you could take over from me.
So hence I ended up, you know, taking over the job of running the clothing teams,
the what's called the chief of staff, which is the sort of the, if you like, the every day, the chief operating officer, the person who runs the organization on a daily basis and make sure that everything is carried out properly. Well, that that pretty much goes over all the, like, basic questions. I had a couple more laid out, but it's just already.

LM: No, no, no, go ahead, go ahead, if you go, go ahead anymore. So that with you being in Afghanistan around that time and having this dialogue with somebody who's already with the clothing defense team and hearing all these things from soldiers who are actually deployed and fighting in Afghanistan around that time, there were the Peacock trials going on. How were those going at that time? Like, were they heading in a positive direction in terms of what was being developed or? 

MT: Yes, they were. So yeah, they produced some very interesting results
because they were looking at it as a system. So the previous clothing system which we'd had was combat soldier 95, which reveals one of the sort of the great mistakes in any equipment program is never put a date on it in the name because, yeah, you call it combat soldier 95. It never actually turned up until 1997. So it's instantly out of date as soon as you put a date on it. But that that had been the first sort of proper clothing system where they'd looked at it as a system
where they'd looked at it as an onion skin instead of starting from a base layer t-shirt sort of undershirt and so on working their way outwards. So everything was designed to work together. And Peacock took that next stage further because now we had added body armor into the mix. And Peacocks was, Peacock was supposed to include body armor and load carriage. So how can we make sure that's integrated into the clothing or with the clothing system? So that taught us that we wanted to minimize chafing as much as possible. So for example, the trousers had a draw cord around the waist. And it was found that if in wet conditions, particularly with body armor, that could lead to rubbing on the hips. It's not very comfortable. It was lamented when we took it out. A lot of people complained about the trousers are falling down. But we said we'll just wear a belt and do it up or get a pair of trousers to fit you. But yeah, there's that things like having buttons underneath body armor was on pockets was not a good idea because that would that would chafe. So you wanted something that you could access easily. So sort of you wanted flat fronted pockets, like so the Velcro fastings, which has its own problems and noisy. But also by getting rid of pockets themselves, it reduced a flashpoint for clothing catching fire.

And there's an intro that actually introduces an interesting dichotomy between the UK and the British philosophies about flame retardants in clothing. Because the Americans, they have flame retardant, the US forces have flame retardant clothing. Whereas something which the UK hasn't done and has never embraced that. Because the trials showed that the, through Peacock, the Peacock trials showed that the extra weight and the lack of permeability, breathability, that flame retardant introduced actually was outweighed by the number of guys then suffering heatstroke. So the benefits, the casualties you might save due to their clothing catching fire, you were going to have more casualties going down with heatstroke because the clothing was less breathable, it was less cooling. And you could eliminate a lot of the problems by design rather than by chemical treatment. And it also felt something that it was something, and frankly, we weren't seeing the casualty rates due to flame injuries that you were in the US forces, largely because we were operating in different environments, we were operating dismounted, whereas US forces were operating environments where they needed to operate mounted. And so the result, the vehicle got hit, the vehicle burst into flames, guys in the middle of a flaming vehicle. Our guys were standing to operate dismounted because of the environment, more in primary jungle type terrain, flame wasn't going to be a problem down there. So there were obviously exceptions. And again, the trials that came out of Peacock showed us that generally speaking, that flame retardant only gave you about one or two seconds extra protection, by which time the heat transfer meant that your organs are being pretty much cooked anyway. So you weren't going to be getting a lot of gain for quite a considerable penalty from it. So that was some of the stuff that came out of the Peacock trial that was very relevant, even though Peacock didn't develop a whole lot further, we were able to take a lot of the clothing designs into where we went downstream with that. So that was quite useful to have that knowledge based behind them. 

Now the other large thing aside from the multi-cam trend that was happening around this time was digital camouflage. And we both know that the United States with UCP made a mistake. What was kind of that? I wouldn't go that far. I wouldn't say it was a necessarily a mistake, but it was a well-judged intentions. Yeah, controversial. We'll say controversial.

What was kind of the reaction when it comes to UCP and its adoption? From the UK side, I think we were firmly of the view that a camouflage that was
specific for a terrain was better than a camouflage that was trying to do everything. And this was largely because we hadn't done a whole lot of analysis about it at the time. What we had identified that was probably what was better was to have a camouflage for woodland and a camouflage for desert. And then the items which you do would wear your body armor, your load carriage systems, have those in a combination of the two so that it works with both. And that would give you a sort of like a you're never quite wrong camouflage, if you see what I mean. Yeah. Whereas when we looked at UCP for start digital, it was felt that there was a lot of a lot of cod science talked about digital, oh, it'll help protect you against digital photography or sort of satellite imagery and stuff like that. The general view was that if you're trying to protect against that much, then if they're that close, it's not going to make any difference. It was felt to be just more of a trend than anything. When it got to the point that we were going to change our camouflage, when we started doing our camouflage trials, just 10 years, 10 years after the introduction of UCP, when we started developing into MTP. The reaction from the senior officers was, oh, we're not going for digital. And we said, no, because when we asked the soldiers, they felt that digital was old fashioned because they had spent the last 10 years on their ex-boxes playing, first-person shooter games, wearing digital camouflage. So they felt it was something old. They wanted something new. They wanted something, yeah, a refresh. So there was certainly that feeling of that digital in itself was a cod science. And that UCP, while trying to be a camouflage that fitted all environments actually ended up fitting none. And certainly the joke we heard, whether it was true or not, was that the defense science labs were trying to come up with the correct balance of camouflages. And eventually, general just said, oh, give me something that's 30% wood's 30% desert and 30% urban. 

So, yeah, so what we found or our understanding and bearing in mind this sort of largely hearsay was that what the US was trying to do was to develop a camouflage that would work in all environments. But sort of eventually the scientists couldn't get anything and the supposedly
the general in charge said, give me something that is one third desert, one third woodland, one third
urban. And so you've got this greenish grayish brownish camouflage or greenish grayish sandy camouflage
that just didn't work anywhere at all. There were lots of sort of theories about well actually,
you know, sort of by the time you've rolled in the mud, the mud and the dust of it, the little sort
of blending, you know, which is true of any camouflage. But sort of there was definitely, we looked
definitely sort of slightly a sconce at it just purely because it wasn't somewhere that we felt
we wanted to go. Although it did make us look at our camouflages and go, they're a bit dated now,
you know, sort of just in terms of how do they look. But it was recognised that DPM was one of the
better performing camouflages, certainly the woodland DPM in a woodland environment was superb.
The problem was maybe when you stepped out of the wood, but certainly in the 80s and 90s,
that's what we expected to be spending a lot of our time, sat in woods waiting on the north
German plane, waiting for the Russians to come and find us. So I think we sort of were quite happy
with what we had at the time. It was only later when we were involved in Afghanistan that things
started to change. Up till then the Iraq desert camouflage perfectly well suited for operations in
desert. But sort of it was the issues around troops moving across different environments that
made us look quite carefully at what we were doing in Afghanistan and what we needed from that.
Now I am kind of curious because when I initially brought up UCP
and I said that it failed, you said not really. And I just want to dig into that a little bit
because I'm not really too well versed on the history of UCP and its development. And a lot of
people who are in the same position as I am would call it a failure. What made it
just controversial rather than just an out-all-out failure as a pattern?
I think what I would say is I mean controversial because it was radically different to what
had gone before. There were some environments where either it just didn't work or all it was
it was in some cases when it was brand new I think it was very stark.
But in some environments I think it worked perfectly well or certainly when it was faded when
it had got a bit dusty. But the trouble is it's that problem of individual perception.
And when I was briefing people about why we need to make sure troops had a camouflage
work well I would draw the illusion of the the photo reconnaissance Spitfires in the latter
year 1944-1945 in the Second World War. Basically these planes being sent over to take photographs of
German troop formations and depots and so on and so forth. And in the latter half of the
Second World War, particularly after D-Day and the efforts by the US Air Forces in particular,
the German Luftwaffe basically had ceased to exist. So the air threat was very small.
The threat from the ground however anti-aircraft farm was enormous. So they found that the best
camouflage to paint an aeroplane to make it almost invisible from the ground was pink.
So the photo reconnaissance spitfires because they were operating individually,
were painted pink. That's why they painted, that's why they didn't paint B17s later and they had
had them silver because there was no threat they didn't need to be camouflaged.
But the photo reconnaissance Spitfires they painted pink to make them blend into the sky particularly
well. The problem is you're flying your photo reconnaissance spitfire, you look out the window
down at the ground and between you and the ground you've got a bright pink wing
and you can't help but feel you stand out like the biggest pair of bollocks on a dog,
okay? Sorry if you're talking about the expression. But yeah and you absolutely stand out
like the dog's bollocks. And it's yeah it was a real problem from Iraq for the pilots because
they felt very so vulnerable every time they went up and it's very probably the same. If you're
wearing a camouflage that close up against the environment you're in looks wrong, you will feel
wrong and you will distrust the camouflage. From 200-300 meters away the camouflage might actually
be quite effective but up close when you're looking at your legs against the ground you think you
stand out really clearly and that's one of the reasons why camouflage is actually very important
to the individual to make him think he's well protected and has blended in. There's a lot of
evidence that says actually just frankly kaki green works quite well. You see a lot of people
now are just wearing sort of like brown yeah kaki brown yeah we call it kaki
for sort of pale green you see a lot of a lot of guys wearing that now because frankly it works
just as well. At a long distance because all the camouflage blends in up close within say 100 meters
that's when camouflage starts getting really quite important you know let's say under 200 meters
like camouflage starts getting important but that's why I'd say it was the problem with UCP
particularly why it wasn't well received. Yeah so going off some of the other things that you
said about the adoption process of MTP one of the things that I'm gathering the US military didn't
do very well is communicate the effectiveness of the pattern two soldiers who were observing it
in their more immediate environment and thinking this isn't going to this isn't going to work.
That's possible I'm afraid I don't know a lot of the history of the rollout of how
UCP was rolled out but I can believe that. With MTP frankly we didn't do a lot of communication
about the camouflage because it spoke for itself. Once we rolled it out into Afghanistan the
reaction was so overwhelmingly positive because it works and people could see that it worked
or if you like couldn't see it. But as a result you know we didn't need to brief people
about why I mean they're inevitably there be some resistance so it doesn't work particularly
well in this environment that probably doesn't but then the other stuff wouldn't divide it.
So there were inevitably some people who'd like throw a brickbat at it but otherwise it was
we didn't need to do that much of a briefing exercise.
Yeah so I can't comment about the UCP side because I wasn't involved with how that was rolled
out in the process and I had no no direct experience of that. Understandable
earlier when we were talking you mentioned there was a reaction from a particular official
that you wanted to get into. Was that from the US side? Yeah yes okay well we had gone through
the very lengthy process of choosing a new camouflage what it was going to be. And
yeah we looked all sorts of things and eventually had settled on MTP in other words
cry camouflage with a British twist on it you know we sort of said look we want
we want cry camouflage but we want to have something that is uniquely identifiable as British
by retaining some of the shapes within DPM within that which actually just off on a side note
actually made it a better performing camouflage that's the story but we can explore that if you
want. But it came to the point where we were hosting a visit from the US soldier systems team I
think it is I can't exactly the correct organisation but it's the organisation that deals with
all the equipment clothing literally everything from weapon individual weapons down
but sort of yeah certainly camouflage and so forth. And put together the brief I was asked to
brief on our developments and I sort of went through this as the process we've gone through and as
a result the camouflage which we have selected for future use by UK forces will be a variant of
the cry precision camouflage at which point the US general started swearing at me very eloquently
and quite lengthy quite lengthfully calling me pretty much every name under the sun.
Interesting. I am sorry general but I'm sent you in some way he said yes because I am under every
kind of pressure from the US Senate downwards about the performance of UCP camouflage in Afghanistan
and being asked why aren't we adopting cry alternatives and if you've now turned around and
adopting cry I have no leg to stand on. That was pretty that was pretty much how he felt he felt
we had just you know sort of taken away every resistance because you know the one of the other
major parties allies in Afghanistan are suddenly gone oh we're going with cry and so suddenly he
was going to be faced with the same thing and as a direct result it took about year to 18 months
but the US Army adopted UCP I think it was operation camouflage pattern which was cry precision
and then sort of a you know all sorts of and there are a lot of politics which I don't understand
but basically mind you know from from what I believe is the US Army in cry don't get on particularly well
some do not strong resentment there I'm not I'm not going to go into that but as a result they ended
up going through a cry version with their their current camouflage but it was interesting that
around the trade shows which I used to go to as part of my sort of wider engagement with the job
in 2009 2010 you would go and see all the stands would all be basically coyote brown yeah all the
sort of the body armor and so on sort of the impacts and everything and then in 2011 once we
had changed to mtp everything was cry everything's multi-cam yeah and and that has not changed
it suddenly multi multi-cam has become the universal camouflage that everyone has adopted now I'm
not going to say that it was it was us doing that that force that to happen but I think it was
pretty close yeah we were the we were the first we were the first nation to formally adopt as a
national camouflage a multi-cam variant and we were then quickly asked by certainly through the
NATO nations and sort of Commonwealth partners like sort of Australia and so on and so forth and
Australia and Zealand yeah oh yeah what are the results of your testing why did you choose that
show them and then oh okay make sense then went back and asked for example yeah yeah they
and they went back to to Crye and said well can you do an Aus-Cam version of it with their
so camouflage with the rabbit ears in there so sort of they've got an Australian version of multi-cam
now for example so there's you know yeah so it worked fairly quickly but yeah the abuse I got
from an American general was quite it was quite eloquent actually that's quite impressed yeah I'm
really not too surprised by that because the if I remember one of the bigger questions that politicians
were asking was for example why do we have different patterns for each branch of service that
kind of deal like the navy and their digital the it was a whole a whole mess because they were
wondering why we were spending all this money on different camouflage patterns when we could
just adopt cry yeah absolutely and instead of I actually went when we'd be introduced
mtp I got asked a brief our head of the navy the navy board was called just chaired by the
second sea lord so wonderful name but first sea lord and second sea lord and the second
sea lord was chairing this and so said yeah so right but we're very keen on having a a blue
blue camouflage you know it's a blue version of this for our personality so why your onboarder
ship what do you need camouflage for sort of corporate image you know sort of so you have a
corporate image it's called navy blue the clues in the name yeah you just need to wear blue yeah
it's just yeah we call it navy blue because it's the blue worn by the navy and you went huh
yes I suppose you're right so actually again we then we then forced yeah that result in a change
from what the navy had been wearing which is a light blue shirt dark blue trousers they now wear
dark blue shirt and trousers so they adopted that instead but yeah we did we did sort of
look at sort of how yeah the US adopting the US army adopting its camouflage caused a
complete fragmentation between the services where they all adopted their own camouflage for
corporate images and so you know you've got the army camouflage you've got the US marine camouflage
you've got the navy really do you need that on a ship camouflage yeah and then you've got the
Air Force which is just the absolute worst combination of everything yeah that was a good idea yeah
so yeah there was a certain degree of like right that's what we that's what we have to avoid
and that was it was some very clear instructions we got is that we are not following those lines
obviously yeah much smaller forces you know I mean we're about the size of the Marine Corps
on a good date so yeah we don't have nearly half the half the problems which you guys have in
terms of managing that but that was one of the issues excellent yeah I would you be willing to
get into kind of the more technical aspects of actually designing mtp like for example the the
testing process that you guys use to actually finish the multi-cam color palette and pattern worked
the best in the environment you needed it too sure no problem at all I can't share the slides with
you unfortunately because they're they're not classified but they're just not for sort of general
release but I'm happy to talk around the subject um yeah so so essentially in um like 2009 I
think it was really 2010 we got a requirement from forces in Afghanistan saying that they were not
happy particularly since we moved into helmet province and operations there sort of take
up a base the performance of the camouflage which they had which is desert camouflage something
you picked up on your video very well that how the troops would be moving from a sand environment through
sort of fields crops into primary jungle almost certainly secondary jungle thick undergrowth
over you know sort of trees and so forth then through an urban sort of area and then back out
reversing that and guaranteed that you know they were issued with desert camouflage guaranteed
that they were going to be wrong somewhere on that process yeah they'd be wearing the wrong
camouflage and some units took along their woodland camouflage yeah so their woodland dpm like they
might bring along a smock um but you know so does that mean they can have to stop open their
burgans put the jacket on you know carry on which wood then I'm going to be really hot because they're
wearing a sort of a temperate jacket in the middle of a bloody um Afghanistan um some tried dying
you showed a very very good picture of the young lad wearing this old green top where they tried
to die the desert camouflage with some local dyes to max the local background again that didn't work
but it just revealed the problem it highlighted the problem uh to us so we sat down with um
uh my technical experts within the team who are sort of very much sort of experts on the clothing
design the one of whom had actually developed the desert camouflage um but also the scientists at
dstl defense science and technology labs um who are our scientific um support the armed forces because
whatever we did it had there had to be science behind it yeah it couldn't just be we like that one
yeah you had to actually know that it was going to be the right thing uh and we started off with
quite a large information gathering um both using satellite data and um gathering photo um color
corrected imagery uh from Afghanistan of different environments so we could actually determine
that right that's what the green looks like that's what the sat and looks like oh that's the
variations of green what you get and then sort of satellite imagery trying to give us a feel that
the satellite imagery didn't work it was far far too broad you couldn't couldn't really pin
anything on its tour um but we sort of came up with a range of colors and from that
mic loading team people came up with a range of patterns so it's very interesting to see you
actually had some of those sample garments made up in those colors we fascinated
what you got them from um we didn't think that they were yeah we've we've got a whole sailor
called the east west trading co in the UK okay um we've been buying them from them for a couple
years and one day my rep there just texted me and said hey I have I have these trials patterns
like I think it was maybe eight or ten different sets with the pants and shirt it was like yeah
sure we'll take those for a question and it was just just completely loose you know
the no pockets or anything like that they literally were just you know just no pockets
air of genres is what we've got pretty much yeah we just called them paraplegias um yeah so they
made up we made up a whole series of different um camouflage is based upon this
a range of information that we were getting back from Afghanistan through the science land
and some of it you looked at and it was like oh no no if I could not imagine putting our troops in
that um a couple of them were like yeah okay that might work you know and we had variations we you
know because we knew that what was important was the colors not the shapes so we could do digital
we could do splash we could do pebble you know all these different shapes and styles they they don't
materially affect much yeah unless you're very very close um and we sort of also cast
on that around the army around the armed forces and we spoke to the special forces um who were
wearing crime and they said yeah they they had adopted it because they generally felt it was a
good universal camouflage um and it seemed to work well in all areas so we sort of
thought right I'll throw those into the mix as well and we then raises the question okay we've
got lots of different camouflages we've come up with lots of different colors how do we test them
how do we actually work out objectively which one is the best now the tradition is
dress half a dozen guys up make them go and stand against a tree line or in a field
dress back to 300 yards and go yeah I can see number five and see number three number one he's
gone complete yeah that's the traditional way of doing it and it's very flawed because the background
will always be slightly different um there will be subtleties in the clothing for example how they're
standing they're standing with their arms folded the way the shadow lies or the if the if the
if the the clothing is creased at all that may create a shadow which actually stands out just
draws the eye to it subliminally you don't notice it's happening but it just draws your eye in
slightly more so we identified we needed something completely neutral so you could eliminate all
of those variations and variables and you needed something which we could present the statistical
evidence yeah not well you know ten blokes looking at five blokes in a field they all said
number three was the best or what have you because actually you'll have known that number three
is the camouflage you think's really cool number five is the the one that you wouldn't be seeing
dead in so you automatically choose number three um yeah open so what we what we
it's just horrendous it is horrendous and and and you know you go yeah it sounds like a good idea
but yeah to to provide that evidence to convince the scrutiny is the people who are trying to find
yeah a reason to say no because they don't want the money to be spent you have to be able to
produce hard evidence to them so what we came up with is with with DSTL science labs was a statistical
test which was they essentially took what we call a figure 12 target it's the taught it's a it's
a shooting target it's the top half of the body and draped it in camouflage each
so we had say 12 camouflages draped twelve of these targets with the camouflage absolutely tight
so there's no shadows there's no creasing it's just that shape took photographs of each one
and then photoshop them drop them into a variety of different backgrounds so there be urban
deserts jungle woodland open fields scrub you know i think we had something like yeah it doesn't
camouflage as it does in different backgrounds and what they did was because they were they were
dropping them in they were able to repeat that the camouflage was in exactly the same position
in every picture okay and then what they did was they sat soldiers down at a at a computer screen
the image was displayed and each soldier was only shown one background once okay and what he did
was he then he looked at the he looked at the background as soon as he saw the camouflage figure
he pressed the space button so you could time from image appearing to when he saw the camouflage
and hit the space button and that would be anything from half a second up to go on 30 seconds
okay now he only saw a particular background once so he wasn't looking at the same spot every time
he would he would see an urban background a woodland background a scrub background a
yeah sort of all of the 12 backgrounds he'd see that he'd see each one only once so he'd only
ever see one camouflage in it so soldier A might see camouflage one against urban background, but soldier B would see camouflage
two against that background. Does that make sense? Yeah. So the effect of you have a matrix
of soldiers and camouflages or soldiers and backgrounds and camouflages and no one is seeing
the same background twice with a different camouflage. That must have taken a lot of people
together all that day. That's why there's defense and science labs because these guys work it out
yeah very when they explained it to me and they explained it far better than I have to know I'm
afraid. They absolutely I went here that's absolutely genius you have eliminated all of the variables
and we had I think something like 40 guys go through this doing this so yeah
yeah hitting the space bar as soon as they saw the camouflage and so every camouflage appeared
on every background and each one was observed by about I think probably a dozen soldiers
so we were able to so very quickly but they all did it in isolation one at a time so there was
no saying that oh yeah in that one the camouflage is down by the building on the right hand side
there was no queuing to them and they never saw as I say again the same background twice so they
never identified that that's where the camouflage was appearing but because the camouflage figure
was always appearing in the same place every time someone you came in you were able to sort of test
actually how long it took to see it and the end result was you had a variety of times that
ranged from half a second which was basically how quickly could it get his hand on the on the space
bar yeah so that was an instant spot that really was so that was that was the dark green background
with a desert camouflage you know that that sort of environment all the the dark green camouflage
in the desert environment but the ones which are very obviously wrong so you ended up so that was the
the fastest the most extreme on the left hand side and then you had the ones that took more than
30 seconds if after 30 seconds the guy happens spotted it we said that's pretty much invisible
yeah and that was the what you had there was the terrain specific camouflage is so you had the
desert camouflage on the desert background or the woodland camouflage and the woodland background
and so that proved yeah absolutely those environmental specific camouflage are absolutely the best
but the trouble is they're also absolutely the worst when they're in the wrong place and actually
as soon as you step out of the wood wearing the dark woodland camouflage dpm as you and I know it
it got very quickly very obvious it started to go wrong quite quickly and the same with desert
as soon as you step out of the desert that went wrong quite quickly so although those camouflage
were the best in their environment they were worst across a majority of environments if that makes
sense yeah that that makes total sense that makes total sense the other camouflage as we had you know
they all sort of worked yeah much as a muchness sort of spread across that sort of range
multi-cam um we put in there because special forces were wearing it so we said let's have a look at
that and yeah it it was never an instant spot never an instant spot it was a a never seen in a couple
of environments but it was always at the top end it was always one that people had to really stop
and look for to find it so we're quite confident that actually that was that was pretty that was a
high performing camouflage there were two or three others that were of the same of our own designs
so that made us go okay well we've probably got a top top five here so yeah we know they all
performed statistically about the same as probably not not enough statistical significance between
but we know we've got five very good performing camouflages across a range of environments
here that perform well everywhere okay not brilliantly but certainly never bad there's never one
way you're going to step out and sort of be they're going could we here I am yeah it's never going
to be in that environment in that situation with it so he said okay um so the next thing to do frankly
is to ask the soldiers what do they want to wear and I bring you back to that comment about the
photo reconnaissance Spitfire you have got to look at yourself you've got to be confident in what you're
wearing before you step out of that patrol base you've got to be confident that actually you hit
the dirt you're going to disappear yeah and that the the the Taliban whoever's or whoever your
enemy is is going to have problems seeing you you've got to be confident in that and not just
because some scientists told you you've got to feel good about it so we arranged literally a
fashion show whereby we sort of had examples of the five we we showed them the science we proved
to them that they worked you know we had 200 soldiers there I think including members of the Royal
Air Force and the Wolverines we showed them the science showed them that it worked and then we
showed them the camouflages if you like in the flesh and we asked them to vote which ones did they
prefer now multi-cam was the clear winner because it just looked cool but interestingly by that
stage we had also got sample of the camouflage that Caleb cried designed for us because as I say
we wanted a camouflage that was uniquely British because we recognized that multi-cam was
was certainly American it was it was a multinational camouflage we felt and we we felt that
we needed the camouflage that was part of if you like combat recognition yeah so you can
identify who what nationality somebody is a multinational environment by their camouflage so we
wanted something that just had a hint of a hint of Britishness about it by use and we asked
him to incorporate the shapes of DPM into the camouflage which he did so the guys all went yeah okay
yeah multi-cam's the best and then we went okay there is this variation of it with the UK
partner they just went that's cool that's really cool because it's multi-cam but it still
hearts back to TPM so they could see they could see the thread back to where we had come from
with a previous camouflage and that was it and that was that's what sold it so that's what that sort
of is that's where we made the decision to go for it and went with that one so that was to then
just a case of briefing the generals showing them the evidence the generals all go yep fine perfect
sign off on that bank get it going so at which point sort of we we signed all the paperwork
to effectively buy the design from from Crye and Caleb he sent the CD with the designs on it we
sent the designs out to to out to the manufacturers so we had to like you know 10,000 sets rolling
off the mills being produced and so forth and so we were good to go and so we were able to
field it by back end of 2010 so in total how long did that development process take from the idea
to having it in the hands of troops it seems like it went very quickly which is it did it was
yeah I would say it was it was less than a year that's the insane turnaround time of yeah I think
it was I think the actual development and briefing process probably took eight months and then
manufacture was yeah that was probably about another three or four months to get it out but
obviously we didn't get as much as we wanted you know so the guys only deployed with two sets
rather than six or four you know but sort of that was that was just a process to get it going
yeah and and then we're able to send them more out as more more came in and became more available
so yeah so they so some of them had desert you know they all had desert clothing as well as the
multi-calve mtp camouflage and then we sort of were able to then supplement it as the as
their tool went on as they were deployed and it's an apt answer I'm going to have the same more
sense out to them so yeah it was about that it was about that length of time it seemed longer at
the time certainly occupied most of my life yeah my weight and sleeping moments but yeah it was it
was good it was one of those things where it was recognised formally that a very successfully run
project that sort of delivered sort of on time and delivered the right product for people
excellent quite quite pleased with that absolutely and yeah with with the actual effectiveness of
the camouflage it was received very positively and in the book changing of the guard by Simon
Accom he noted in there that were that there were some communications between members of the Taliban
and Helmand that were facing the British soldiers and they were able to tell when those foot patrols
were going out with the new camouflage on because they noticed that their casualty rates had dropped
is there how how much of a difference did that make I assume it made a pretty big one
yeah it's it's difficult to say because there's so many other variables tied up with yeah
yeah because at that point the nature of operations in Afghanistan had changed from
being one where the Taliban were sort of like having stand up gun fights with us
to one where they were instead doing sort of ambushes with IDs or just laying sort of
yeah sort of minefields effectively on our likely routes and then just waiting for us to sort of
step on the more trip on them because the the various countermeasures we had would
step we'll prevent them using command detonators as well so yeah I mean you couldn't say for sure
that camouflage arrived on this day and as a result then dropped or anything like that you couldn't
you couldn't tie that in because there's too many other variables around the place but certainly
the guys felt a lot better about sort of being what they were wearing the bit which Simon talked
about is absolutely true that was reported to me and I saw the transcript of the conversation
and that is absolutely what happened with the sort of the local Taliban command who was being
voloped by his boss or not killing enough brits and his comment was well since they've changed
the camouflage I can't see them and that's always that's a that's a very good thing when the other
guy tells you you're doing something right it's you know you're doing something right so yeah so that
was quite good yeah and also sort of you know you get hypocritical stories back sort of as I
mentioned some of the guys had the still had desert camouflage or they all still had desert camouflage
inevitably the cycle of patrols and washing of the kit means that somebody hasn't got MTP
you know so in the very in the very very first weeks and literally it's very first weeks
when they were out there before sort of the next delivery took place some would be out
on patrol sort of wearing desert camouflage and if they came under fire it would be sort of like
Smith you're right that there's a camouflage get up and run five paces towards fire so we can
see him and then we'll shoot him for you yeah so that's sort of the standing joke that you know
sort of the guy in the desert camouflage was the bullet magnet who would sort of yeah so yeah so
I mean that sort of that was sort of how it went on but yeah it sort of came as a bit of a shock to
me when as I say we set the CD to the manufacturer but we had you know 10 20,000 sets of this stuff
rolling off the production lines and then Caleb Christ sent me an email saying have you found it
yet oh that's awesome what yeah and he sent me a picture of the camouflage and outlined in red
were my initials and I had no idea he'd put my initials in the camouflage and I said my initial
reactions to Jesus Christ when the generals hear about that I assume that I did it as an
act of vanity which I didn't like I did name it multi terrain camouflage so that the initials
would be MTP absolutely multi terrain pattern I have actually you know shame about that at all
but yeah so he put the initials in I just went you know what after 30 years in the army it means
I can say that I've left my mark well and truly have on the sort of on the army even today that
they're wearing the camouflage of my initials in it but apparently sort of talking to
several friends of my children who have friends in the army who are in the army and apparently in
some places almost a morning routine if they greet each other and they they look on the camouflage
to try and find if they yeah if they've got the mt in it because it depends where the cloth has
been cut it's been stitched together as to where it where where the pattern is as one yeah not
everybody has exactly the same parts of the camouflage pattern on them yeah that was that was
something interesting when when I was reading that book and it mentioned that I immediately went to go look at one of the smalls that we have in the warehouse and
It was really difficult finding it. We think maybe we saw it in there. But it's super difficult because like you said they cut the cloth differently depending on you know
What garment they're making and all that good stuff. So is are those initials like together in the pattern like all within a certain area or is it just kind of random? The MT appear is always in the same
Place in relation to other shapes
Yeah, so it's all I think
There's one one of them we used to nickname the dead camel
There's a brown shape and it looks like sort of a camel with its head turned back on itself
And I think it's below that it's been a long time since I've looked
But I mean if you want sort of at some point hold your jacket up and I have a look for you and see if I can find it
Annoyingly I've got I've got about three set. I've got about two or three sets of MTP at home
Which are you know just stored in the attic?
I don't think any of them have got the
Got MT or anywhere because just you know just random luck the way that it's it's it's for them
But you know it's I mean it's not in or that the important thing is yeah, that's a camouflage that is
Shown to be successful
Yeah, but statistically and more importantly adopted by the troops
They very much took here took to it instantly
And sort of yeah, you would stand there sort of some
Sort of grouping and you'd have half people in the MTP and half people in DPM because the the change over hadn't
taken place and
Yeah, you just look at the guys in the in the new camouflage and you just go yeah, that looks incredibly modern
It looks very professional to date. Yeah, yeah
I and it's it's sort of taught me a lot of about the science. Why is it so effective?
Why does it work so well because essentially?
DPM is five colors
You know woodland DPM is five five five colors very very dark brown. We'll call it black for
Want to something else and
Then variations on lighter browns and lighter greens for four four browns for sorry two browns two greens five colors
Whereas crye
Multi-cam is seven
Again, you got the very dark brown and then I think you've got three shades of green two shades of brown
But you also have this cream
that runs through it
you've got cream blobs on it and
My understanding is it's that this is that makes the difference
Why it makes it a multi-terrain camouflage because
What those blobs what those cream
Elements do is reflect back the local terrain back to the observer's eye
So if you're standing in a green field
those cream blobs
will look green
Is the same shade as what's around you?
Whereas if you're in a desert they'll look yellow if you're on a red laterite sand area they'll look red and
What happens it's
With my wife bless it if she changes the curtains
She'll turn around and say now we need to change the
The sofa covers or the sofa cushions why will say they match the curtains and
It's called accenting. It's if you have something so for example if you have a
a red curtain and you have a
Green sofa with a red cushion on it or the pattern on the sofa has got red in it
It will match
Usually it won't clash in your mind in your brain because you're seeing the same red on
There as you're seeing in the background
Okay, yeah
And so that's that's what it does because it in the camouflage it puts in the local terrain color
Into your camouflage and your brain then interprets that and goes okay, that's not standing out. That's actually blending it
And that's how it works. It's it's it's very very very low-level psychological
Understanding of how the eye and the brain see perceived colors
Yeah, that was that was a question. That's that's
That's a question I was wondering about because you you look at that color and you don't think it belongs in a camouflage pattern
But that makes a lot of sense. No, that makes a ton of sense
Yeah, if you look if you look at it deployed in in various environments you won't see that cream
Yeah, you only see it when you're looking at it under a normal white light in a room or something like correct
Yeah, huh where it reflects the white light. That'll be why huh?
That's really cool
Yeah, yeah, what's I mean Caleb cut cry abs that he absolutely knew what he was doing with that yeah
So, you know he deserves a lot of props for that
Yeah, that is
I hadn't really thought of that. That's actually really cool. Thank you. I
Can't get over. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, I can't get over how well that actually works. That's insane
Huh, yeah, it's it was quite radical some of some of the earth sort of
I think
Some of that early iterations of DPM when it was first introduced
Got close to it because we had very very light green in it
Um, but over the years
Um, the woodland DPM in the UK Armed Forces has darkened much rather like the US
Woodland pattern got quite dark before it was replaced by UCP
Um, and as a result you lost that so you look at you look at mtp and compare it to the camouflage we were wearing in the 70s
Yeah, 68 onwards when DPM was first introduced and actually the colorways are very close
They're not that they're not that dissimilar
Um, and having having something that is light and reflects back the camp the local coloration is actually quite important
Interesting. We might have to do um like a test of some kind with that between pattern 68 DPM and the newer mtp
Because we've we've got both of them here
Yeah, that'd be really cool. Yeah, that'd be interesting very intriguing. Oh
Well
With the with the rollout of
MTP and of course the new uniform that went along with it what were some of the the protective elements that were added or incorporated into it
To better address issues faced in Afghanistan
Um
It was sort of it wasn't a direct sort of delivering incorporation, but it sort of was was the net the next step on
um
We identified that um
That a lot of the casualties that were coming back from Afghanistan were
um
What we call perineal injuries, so groin injuries
Um, and they all you've missed to be termed by the press's life-changing injuries
You know, so i'd like i'll leave you to you and your audience to work out actually what that means
But the guys were suffering and girls were suffering some really very unpleasant traumatic injuries. There's a result essentially of stepping on ied's
Um, and it came out of a press report initially
Uh, that the us forces weren't suffering these casualties
In the way that the British forces were
Because according to the press the us body armor had a flap that protected the groin
Uh, but hang hung down in front. I'm sure you you know what i'm talking about that. Yeah
Um, that particular design
That actually has nothing to do with it because that flap is designed to protect the groin from
An artillery shell exploding 30 yards away
You had to protect you from the shrapnel from that. Yeah, it doesn't it doesn't cover it down
It's meant for folks. It doesn't cover underneath you exactly um, so you step on an ied
The blast goes up the flaps going up and everything else is going up as well
So we said well, that's not the answer. Why is it and there's a very simple one um in is the the British forces of the patrolling on foot
Because of the nature of the terrain where they were operating in whereas us forces where they were operating with the trolling in vehicles
Yeah, and so not suffering the same casualties
Different casualties. Yes, but not suffering the same because of what they were doing
But we went okay, that's certainly revealed the problem that we weren't aware of we hadn't been getting the feedback on casualty
natures and
It's also going to you know things are going to start happening people are going to start reacting and wanting something done
So we got on the forward foot and
Basically said right we need to come up with something
That will help mitigate help reduce the effects of the blast injury
um
Went here to the to the groin to the perennial area and it wasn't just the groin. It is the top of the thighs as well
You've got the femoral arteries, but the most important requirement um with that was that it has to be wearable
It has to be comfortable
Because it's not comfortable the guys aren't going to wear it and it's not going to work
You know, it could be the best protection thing, but it's no point no use if it sat in the locker
When you step on an IED
So you know, we've got to make sure that it's it's comfortable and effective
Um, so we we went through you know with the the medics and the scientists
You know identified what the threat mechanism was what the injury natures were
And it essentially it was dust and small grit
Um
Was what was being thrown up and yeah, that was getting into
Somebody put it the soft dangly underparts
um
But you then to get it out you you had to go through a process of what's called debriding which was sort of
You know, the old joe is why brush and death old is essentially what it is, you know, you have to scrub it
Yeah, exactly
Um, so if we can stop that it's not a major threat. It's not it's not you know, it's not like stopping a bullet
Yeah, um the size of explosions are quite small
Um, essentially they're anti personnel mines, but yeah
The so the velocity of the dust of the stones wasn't great
We wouldn't need to do a huge amount to stop it. So what did we need to do?
And we came up very with various designs um starting off with Kevlar
You know sort of putting Kevlar lining in trousers
Kevlar lining in boxer shorts um and so on
And I would get the sample made up and I'd say right give those to me
I'll put them on and I'll take them for a five mile run around the hills, you know my pack on and I was fitter those days or fit
Um, and I would come back in the middle of summer and go nope that doesn't work
You know, you know horrible chafing come back to me in a couple of days of the next design
And so and we were getting wrapped around this axle sort of you looking at Kevlar, you know Kevlar fell
We've all sort of variations and iterations of it
And um, I'm a bit of a military historian you can see I've got my red tunic from um, sort of the guards behind me
Um, and I just remembered that something that somebody told me I had red ones
That at the Battle of Waterloo
Um or in the Napoleonic Wars the officers would wear silk shirts
Not because not just because they were comfortable
But because if you were shot by a musket ball and you're wearing cotton
The cotton would tear
And go with the musket ball into the wound
And then when you take the musket ball out the cotton would be left behind
Where it'd fester and you then die of blood poisoning
Whereas if it's silk,silk wouldn't tear it would instead it would tunnel it would it would stretch it would it would
Push
And it would
Strap the musket ball and then when you took the shirt off it pulled the musket ball out
And wouldn't leave anything behind
Okay, and this probably wasn't really recognized as such
Um, but it was the same reason Genghis Khan they used to wear silk shirts under their
Chainmail
But precisely the same reason to stop arrows
Yeah, and it would you the arrow would go in it would hurt you it would cause an injury
But you wouldn't be left with something that would then kill you
So I said to the guy said look
Have a look at silk see what we can do with that see what you can come up with with some ideas and let it they again went away
Talked to some developers and they came up with
Uh a layer of woven silk
That when we tested it the reaction was
Christ that works
You know, it stops those threat fragments. It stops those small particles of stone
It stops the dust and it helps stop the blast
going up
And you know, they got a pair made up took it for a run absolutely no problems at all
You know wearing silk underwear going for a run perfect
So yeah, we just refined the design a little bit more and then we went for it from there
And with the introduction of that now that was something we could tie we saw
Perineal injuries drop
By about 70% that's amazing
It was absolutely incredible. There was the
The photographs that would be shown
Because when the troops arrive in picture in theatre they give them briefings about you know
Why you've got this what you need to do some of them were extremely graphic
And there was a couple of pictures of two guys one who had been wearing
Uh, the protective box of shorts and one who hadn't
Um, and the one who I won't talk about the one who hadn't
I'll leave that to your imagination
But the one who had there was a clear
Demarcation on his thigh
Where the shorts were
Below that his skin was
This colored yeah, sort of it was a sandy color because of all the all the dust that been thrown up in bed
Here to a skin
But above that was healthy pink flesh
Because the the shorts have done their job and stopped stop that sand and dust and grit going in
So we saw those sorts of injuries drop enormously
um
And
What we then found was that
every other nation
In Afghanistan came to us saying can we buy those please
Um, and we put them in touch with our manufacturers and of course we added a 10% commission on chart on top
Um, of course because because because we designed it yeah not not not to my retirement fund hate
Um, but actually back into into UK government and effectively
That 10% commission paid for all the ones we had produced for UK forces
Um, excellent. What was what was yeah, so I mean sort of you know, we covered our costs as it were
As well as not only protecting our guys, but protecting a lot of other people as well
Um, the only sadness about it was that while the US forces were able to buy them I think for a year or maybe two years
um
They
They have that and I can't remember the name of the act, but anything which they
The armed forces has has to be produced in the USA
Yeah, I think it's the very compliance
That's it. So yes, thank you very yeah very can yeah very compliance and so because of that
they only could get a dispensation for a short amount of time
to buy our products
and
because of some
Agricultural protection
Requirement there is no domestic silk
Manufacturing in the US. Yeah, there's there's barely
There's barely any cotton or wool let alone silk here
Yeah, um, and so
Silk was not silk was not something that that yeah, this is my understanding. This is what was related to me
Um, that they had to go the US forces had to go down a different road had to go down
the Kevlar road
Rather than the silk using silk um, which you know was
You then have the problems of being uncomfortable too hot
And so on so forth because of unfortunate restrictions on
The fact that it has to be made in the USA
And the materials the materials to make it
Aren't available. Yeah, you end up with a similar situation to flak jackets in Vietnam where nobody wants to wear them because they're too uncomfortable
Correct, and that's it. That's exactly what we were fighting against um, so yeah, that was that was a big issue
But I think for me the sort of the biggest moment on that was um
We did a survey
with the troops of um
Yeah, saying to them sort of like yeah
Can you tell us what you think of these um and at the time the parachute regiment was deployed
And they are a very very hard bit and bunch trying to get any sort of response to
Normally, I just yeah, tear up and smoke, you know, use it for toilet paper or something
Um, but we got an 80% response rate from them on this which was unheard of
Um, almost 80% positive. One comment which um, I think will live with me to my dying day was one guy saying
I love my silk underpants. I can't stop touching myself when I'm wearing them
Which won't be decided he he possibly been in Afghanistan too long and really needed to come home and see a girlfriend sounds like
Yeah
Yeah, um, but the other another guy was brought in he'd he'd been um, involved in an incident and uh, he'd actually
He'd been shot me on
But when they stripped him off on the surgical table. They found he was wearing two pairs of them
Interesting and they sort of said why are you wearing two pairs? He said
Because my wife was told me we're having children when I get back
So to make sure that I came back complete
So
Told me to wear two pairs to make sure okay, fair enough
Yeah
That then yeah, that then span out those sort of then a um
Sort of then a program of for example, um, uh, what was called the kevlar nappy
Which was sort of something which you could have rolled up on the back of your
I've you've attached the back of your body armor and put on
Um, when you're going into particularly high threat environments, um, but obviously it wasn't something which you'd want to wear for a long time
Obviously some some did some commanders insisted they did uh, and that's fine
And then we developed a leg length version for guys who were doing um
Sort of high risk searches using metal detectors to try and find the explosives. Yeah, those guys who were
Most likely to set something off because that would actually not only save there um, sort of the perineal injuries
would also risk save a lot of damage to the legs as well
So you know, we did that that developer in there
we also um
Uh
Ended up putting silk into the collars of um the combat shirts
So that uh, they they could do the collars up
Like that and that will be lined with silk inside because again any injury to the neck
Um, because you got such a dense
The profusion of blood vessels there um was highly likely to be lethal
So yeah, if again that if you could mitigate that um, we you know, we did that as well
So we started really sort of
Introducing this into into the clothing as well to make clothing part of the protection whereas normally clothing and protection are two separate things
Interesting. So again, yeah, I think by that stage we weren't getting many casualties
But so they're like I don't think they could necessarily trace a direct
correlation between the introduction of silk and the collar um, but
You know, I understand it did have a casualty reduction effect
Hmm
That's that's really quite fascinating. It's it's yeah
It boggles my mind why the US military didn't try to replicate that stateside. Even with the lack of manufacturing infrastructure
I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know um, you know sort of
You could be cynical and say was that a not invented here issue um, yeah, there's any number of things like I
Yeah, very very probably as I said coming down to the fact they were not seeing the same casualty
Trends that we were because of different operating mechanisms. So
That it probably wasn't felt to be as necessary
Um, I could be wrong um, but yeah, so that could be part of it
Yeah, but it does sort of lead to a whole sort of
Interesting issue about yeah, the effects of clothing on reducing injuries um, I dealt with
Some guys I used to work with a charity that still
Um helps British um, so soldiers who've been who've lost legs or arms or and so forth
And there was one guy who he he'd got blown up um, and he'd been walking along with his sort of
His sleeves like that
wearing a pair of gloves and he had really clear scarring
There from there to the cuff of his gloves
Yeah, and so just the just the fact that he'd his shirt he'd had it folded back a couple of times
I was wearing a pair of leather gloves
That really sort of protected that part of the body um, but left this part exposed
Um, yeah, so it's yeah, we always said like you should always go out with your sleeves rolled down and wear a pair of gloves
And because by the time by the time the blast is reached
Up here
Yeah, if you've trodden on something and it's gone bang by the time the blast has reached up here
It's lost a lot of its power and you'd be surprised how much one or two layers of cotton can do to protect you
From sort of yeah, the effects of that
So that was yeah surprising to see
Yeah, so the the clothing is your PPE in a lot of respects
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah
As well as doing things like you know also
You impregnate it with insecticide
So you know to protect you from the effects of insects and mosquitoes
Um, yeah, that that was something which we we had to learn again the hard way
Yeah, yeah, we've we've learned it sort of back in the 50s and the 60s when we were off so we're fighting
Yeah, whereas colonial wars and it's to relearn them again
And it's amazing how how short the corporate memory can be sometimes. Oh, yeah
People forget all the time
Not surprising. Yeah
I kind of want to get into more of the the nitty gritty of the clothing design
um, and I have
One very basic question that some of our customers wanted me to ask
zippers or velcro
Yeah
Yeah, okay
Yeah
Same way you've had you spelled color with the U all without
Um, yeah, depends on our
But I'll say but I'll say yeah it depends it depends exactly on um
People's views
I don't think there's a right answer
Yeah, I think and I will have I will have insta alienated all your audience
Because they will all feel that the answer is either zippers or velcro. I'm not sure there's a right one
um
Probably zips is you have the zip puller
And the reason sort of it's a
Concern is for my perspective is what goes underneath body armor
You want to reduce you want everything as flat as possible. Yeah, it's reduce any chafing
So we develop the u-backs the under body armor combat shirt
Which is essentially a t-shirt with you know regular combat shirts slings and a collar
Um, so that you've got a high wicking
mesh
Body to wear under the body armor. So we remove the need for pocket
That's great in warm environments, but in temperate environments or where you take the body armor off
We couldn't be you're gonna want something that's more of a lightweight jacket or a shirt
And you're gonna want pockets
So if you have zips and you wearing body armor over top they're gonna push in um and that can be uncomfortable
Um
Obviously, you know zips on your arms for your arm pockets, but the problem is there
You know, but you're crawling through mud. There's it getting popped up
Break, you know, and so forth. So go for velcro. Why not go for velcro? The trouble is velcro's noisy
Um the number of people who've said that yeah, the problem is with velcro you open your pocket
Yeah
You're gonna get hurt by the enemy
My view is that if the enemy can hear you then
You know, you've got other problems rather than going into your pockets
You should be perhaps be fitting bayonets at that stage. Yeah, and it's it's similar in my mind at least to the myth from World War 2
That people would hear the ping from American grand rifles
Like the ambient noise of a battlefield. You're probably not going to be hearing the velcro opening
No, I wouldn't have thought so or you even if sort of you know
At night in the sort of you know when you're you're sneaking around the enemy
um
Yeah
Yeah, there's there's sort of swings and roundabouts to it. I mean obviously over time velcro can degrade
You know doesn't fasten as well appreciate that
Yeah, one of the interesting solutions I saw
Um, and I'm showing this by an American who was um two strips of velcro
With magnets fitted to it
So you put you fasten the velcro on either side of the pot to either side to touch and close
Um, and then the magnet is actually what held it shut so you knew effectively sealed off the velcro
Um, I'll get a lot of a lot of trouble for saying velcro because actually velcro is a trademark name
It's actually officially touching clothes. Yeah
But sort of and then the magnet would hold the pocket shut
That's great silent
You know reliable not a problem at all
And then I got a compass out and held the compass in front of me
And realized I was now the center of the universe because that's not gonna worry too well
Straight at me. So that's useless for a soldier
Um, where you still have to rely on on a compass looking to magnetic north not to the magnets on your body
Yeah, that would be uh, yeah for land navigation
Could be slightly awkward could be slightly awkward. I mean, obviously some people will go. Oh, yeah, but GPS
But you know, you don't want to have to have the version mode
You have to you have to have a reversion remote um
So yeah, I don't think there is a right answer. I think it depends on circumstances and it will be an argument
I'm sure people have been having in for a 50 years time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's no it's gonna be
There's there's no solving that that's just gonna be something people are gonna have to deal with
Yeah, absolutely absolutely. Okay. Yeah
There was another question. I've seen this a lot when we've advertised for example the mtp smock
Um, and I point out the very nice feature of the hood, you know, with the wire
Um, how it's great. Oh, yes
All that good stuff and a bunch of brits will comment and say well, I'm not allowed to wear the hood on exercise
So why is it there? What's going on there? I've never gotten to the bottom of it
Okay, um, the reason
um
People say you're not allowed to wear it is because it reduces your
Census yeah, it blocks off your hearing
um, you know, you sort of use
Yeah, because with the wire you can shape it like that you can um
Shake shape it in almost into a tunnel. It's a little bit like Kenny in South Park
um
But that's how it's known the Kenny the Kenny hood
um
You
Yeah, it reduces your peripheral vision. So no, don't put the hood up
That's very much just sort of um
Uh, sort of an NCO view I suppose
Not to crying them, but sort of it's become a holy rift that they'll show I'm not put the hood up. Yeah. Okay. That makes a lot of
Obviously
Yeah, obviously in extreme conditions you want to put the hood up. Yeah, if you're for example
Yeah, certainly when I was a young lad I used my smock more as a sleeping bag
Yeah, so when I lay down to go to sleep pull that hood up
Do it up that shut out most of the ambient light and I then just fall asleep. Yeah. Yeah, that's I didn't you check you check me awake
I took the wood you wouldn't have the
Sorry, um, I took the empty piece back on the backpacking trip where the weather was
About 10 degrees Celsius exact same thing. Yeah, perfect. Perfect for that. Yeah. Yeah
It's and also because um
To be honest with you it's also a bit of an iconic look
Um, it's
how
If you if you look at sort of pictures of your your classic british soldier
On exercise on operations
He's wearing a windproof smock
Um, you look back at the falkands. They've got smocks on there and it's it you know, the yes the copper the hoods folded up and tucked up
Um, but it's there. It's part of it. If we take that away people would be complaining about it
So yeah, it's for the cost of virtually nothing
leave it on
People can then use it if they want if they if they're not allowed to use it or if they don't want to use it then fine
But yeah, when they're grown up
they're
In a position in a position to tell people to use it or not to use it then they'll still remember well when I was young
I wasn't allowed to use it so you're not allowed to use it either
That's a that's a really
Part of british army culture. I was I was very curious. I'm wondering those comments for years
Yeah, but I mean the cute the curious one is um the windproof smock has a hood which
He can't use the waterproof jacket doesn't have a hood
Mm-hmm. Yep. I've seen that because
Yep, because and that's that was quite deliberate. We were we were asked to design a waterproof smocker waterproof jacket
That was as light and as small as possible
So you could get it down really small for use on operations because
On operations. Yeah, if you need to put that on you can do the collar right up
Um, you're then wearing your helmet over the top
Your head's not going to get wet
Because you're wearing a helmet
So the hood the collar at the back goes right up to the back it to the the the the nape of the neck or the nape of the head rather
So that pointed the skull
So you've actually got quite a good level of waterproofness there
For time people complain about it is when they're in barracks
movie across the square
Sort of, you know, they're very on and sort of, you know, they're getting wet there
But then if it had a hood they'd be shouted out for putting their hood up
But it's unsoldierly to to wear a hood. So we've kept it on the windproof smock
Because that was a traditional, you know, it was it was keeping it with a traditional look
We didn't put it on the waterproof smock because we wanted something that was light and as packable as possible so that
The previous waterproof jacket guys would tend to leave them back
In their bergens in their in their backpacks in their harbor areas because it was heavy
Whereas the lightweight one they can shove in a in a pouch on their belt and have it with them
And so it gives them a good chance of staying dry when they need it
Yeah, that lightweight version is so much more practical
That's kind of what we thought that's what we were going with it
Yeah
Then let's see a lot of a lot of these are questions from folks who
I heard that you were going to be being interviewed and kind of we're curious
Okay
The next one is again, it's kind of a
Not no right answer to this, but in your opinion
um
What are the worst and best patterns of UK uniforms from like pattern 68 up to present day
Oh
It's a lot of it's a lot of groundwork. Yeah
A lot of ground to cover
I would say the worst was um
The
The thing that was produced in the 1980s that's yeah, um what I was going to get it was it was renowned because
The pockets
It had bellows pockets, but for some reason the bellows always inverted themselves
So you ended up with his triangular pocket sticking out
At the bottom
Um, which just caught on everything
And the quality of the stitching was appalling
So that yeah, you put anything in the pockets they'd fall out because the stitching had gone at the bottom of the pocket
Yeah, so it's no you couldn't put a magazine in there to write for magazine. It was just full straight out on the ground
And inevitably the crotch would go um
And it got to the point where you went in the field you always had to carry what we UK calls a housewife
So we're so in kit
Yeah, and and you'd be there almost every night. So in your trousers back up
That's our final stitching to go on in the crotch. Yeah
um
We we found that started to happen in Afghanistan the crotch was blowing on on the guys on the trousers because yeah the
Conditions are just so hard
So we changed the design of the trousers to actually put a panel in
In the crotch to reinforce it and to move the the seam
Away because obviously a lot of that comes from the seam rubbing
Uh on the inside of people's thighs. So we moved the seam by putting a panel in instead
So that was
That was definitely the worst that 1985 design
I would say
Um the best for its time was probably come back 95
Because that was the first time I think clothing had really been looked at as a system
um
And yeah, taking it on from there
The personal clothing system
Uh, which we replaced compact 95 with um, I would say is um, I don't know if you'll understand the reference but I'd say it was a curate egg
Um, which was there's a joke
Um, and basically it comes down to in its good in parts
Yes, and I take I take responsibility for that because we we were
um
Yeah, it's got some things that were not right so or were not well accepted by the army
That the lightweight jacket in particular
Yeah, we're seen as a not very good design
Um, it's a bit of a shapeless tube
But we were under a lot of time pressure to get something in in order to hit the funding lines
Unfortunately, it's just a because you're dealing with government and funding availability
The money was there
It had to be committed and we had to have um, yeah, a contract led to make the uniforms
And that was the only design we had
That's right
Um, it's sad it's unfortunate
But it allowed what it did allow us to do was to get the mtp camouflage in
Across the armed forces
If we hadn't we would still be wearing dpn today
um
So so that was one of the poor bits of it some of the bits that are absolutely brilliant are the
The u-backs the underbody armor combat shirt that was really good
Um, the smock, I think you know, there's got some really good features on it, you know, sort of like
The zip-pits and the mesh lining
The ju- you know some people like the fleece line pocket some people don't like fleece line pockets
I don't know. I absolutely love those
They're great. Yeah, I mean if you're waiting through rivers, you know, they take time to dry out
And I see the disadvantage there. So, you know, if you don't like them take a night to them cut. Oh, yeah
No one's going to criticize you for that
um
You know some some things on them are a bit clumsy, you know, the armed pockets didn't work as well as out of light
Particularly the blanking plates to cover the velcro because that velcro
um
It's actually is a big IR signature
Um and seen through an IR site it sticks out it blows
Under infrared light quite well
So that's why we put the blanking plates on as well as
The army's rather cured some session of badges
Um, you know, so we will have to have boy scout badges on our arms nowadays show that we belong
Um, so I'm a little cynical, I can't be
Um, so yeah, so I would say yeah, best is combat soldier 95
Um, the stuff in the 1960s, 1968 pattern was that was good
You know, there was that that was but it was basically what we've been wearing in Vietnam which we got from you guys
um
In Vietnam and sort of updated a bit
But the trouble was got wet way to tongue
Yeah, and that was the biggest that was the biggest downside of it, but it was pretty bomb proof
uh, in terms of um, yeah, it's a clothing design
Yeah, I mean you see pattern 68 stuff today like we we end up with like 40 pieces of it here and there and the only thing
Well with it usually is that the buttons might have fallen off otherwise the fabric that's it still great
Yeah, the fabric's fabulous buttons absolutely useless and so that's what that's the big thing with the
Combat soldier 95 had the Canadian Canadian pattern taped buttons
Uh, which you know, they were a revolution. You never ever lost one
That's good
Absolutely
Um, then the next one that I've got right now is also it kind of in the same vein um
What is the most loved piece of clothing issued to the British army at the moment like if there's one
That has a cult following with the uniform
What would it be?
Depends on you talk to um
I mean if you if you talk to the parachute regimen, it will be the para smock
Uh, of course, yeah, you know try try and take that away from them and you know, you never happening
So you're gonna face questions from the uh from Prince well the king himself. I think um
You know interestingly, you know, it's as as an item
I'll put my hand up absolutely useless
Um, it hasn't desert hasn't changed its material or anything else
Since god knows when um, you know
You wouldn't want to wear it in the field because it will soak up water. It won't dry
Uh, and so forth, but as an item that symbolizes who you are
Absolutely nails it, you know, that image is the para
And the parachute regimen in the UK forces
And you have to remember that within the UK forces there's a huge amount of tribalism between different regimens
Which I don't think you have in the US in quite the same way
No, and so you know sort of yeah, yeah, I mean we're small enough to all know each other and sort of you know
So we can all uh sort of play off our differences
Um, what is the most beloved piece of kit apart from that? Oh god, I don't know difficult to say
I've I've heard good things about the uh, the buffaloes and the softies
Yeah, well that's good. I mean sort of the buffalo
The I mean the one which we have got is not a buffalo. It's a buffalo type jackip because we can't we can't just we can't just buy
from
Buffalo because yeah, yeah, unfortunately
Government rules mean that you have to compete things
um
But certainly yeah, I mean the guys love their buffaloes. Yeah, if they buy their own
But the one that's in service is issued is probably not as good, but hey, it's free
So you know if you want to spend your money spending money. It's not a problem
um
The the softie jacket will call the thermal jacket um, it's part of the cold weather ensemble
um
That's very popular because very light you know nice and bulky
Or looks certainly nice and warm
I think most guys try and get those if they possibly can
Um can be something as esoteric as socks. Yeah, it says Arctic socks are very popular
Um, you know, they're they're seen that you know, they're really nice like hers
Um or it could be boots, you know, and there'll be two schools of thought as to which boots they prefer
Um because we have this old thing in the UK um, which I introduced
That you can choose which boots you want interesting
Okay, so when when you um when there are
What we used to do is we used to have a design of boots and we used to go and find the manufacture of you know
The then it was invariably the cheapest company that could make those boots and we've given the contract
And by doing so every time you really let the contract the quality drops
Every time to you end up something is virtually useless
So what we did um under my watch is we turn around said well, okay
We could redesign the boot, but we don't really have any footwear experts
um
Within the team and we had one or two, but we're gonna
It we're gonna be
Fiddling around the edges. Why don't we go out to industry and say here's what we want the boot to do
What have you got?
And that's exactly what we did
So the boots are commercial products
Um, and for the combat boots you have two you have one that's made by Alberg
Uh, which are renowned UK company
Um, and the other by acu which an Italian company
Um, both very different the Alberg is a full leather boot quite high at the leg
The acu boot is um a fabric with a
Gortex liner in it and is low. It's a low boot. So much lighter
Some people say not as weatherproof. Uh, doesn't resist the water as well also as arguments and discussions over that
Um, but generally speaking yeah
Recognize that
Size nine Alberg is not necessarily gonna fit the same way as a side is nine acu boot
So you try them on and you choose the boot which fits you best
Um, and by doing so again
Um
Yeah, allowing the guys to do that. We reduced lower limb injuries by ridiculous levels
Uh, because the guys were suddenly able to get boots that fitted
So they weren't suffering from blisters. They weren't suffering from shin splints and stress fractures
Um, and sort of so, you know, those first few weeks of training in the army were having to run everywhere
wearing boots
That those sorts of problems were not disappeared overnight, but seriously reduced
So
Yeah, some people would swear by their particular brand of boot whichever they prefer
That's awesome. I mean, but where I mean even just sucks. Let's make a huge difference
Absolutely master. Totally
Yeah, totally. I mean, it used to be that the guys would always gone by their own socks
But again, we've introduced a better sock. I think it went backwards slightly when we started getting a bit more mass produced
But hopefully it's recovered again now, but yeah
It's all of those things you have to look at the foot as a system
You know, the sock, the boot
The gator that is over it if you're wearing gaiterr
So yeah, there's like all these things. It's all a series of components that add up to something greater than mal
Absolutely, absolutely
Um, I've got just one more question um
We're we as a company are working on creating our first original
Apparel um, and we'd kind of like some advice um
When it comes to making something that is comfortable and durable
The what are the biggest challenges with clothing design and how can they be overcome
I'm sure you're asking the right person because I had a team of experts for this
I would suggest it
Choice of materials
Choice of fabric something that feels good to the touch
Um, so
Yeah, I remember people would still talk about you know sort of um
satin cotton
Um, that was the original windproof
Smock was sateen cotton and people would love that because the feel was so
Unique and incredibly light. I think feel is one
Um, how does it feel against the skin or when you're wearing it?
Um, if you're wearing it in the field
Um
Wait, you know, you want you want it to be to be as light as possible
And with that
Dry ability how quickly does it dry
Um, and it's breathability
Uh, I would suggest that
Um, thermal issue is less of a less of a concern because you can always wear layers
Underneath it or over it, whatever
Likewise waterproofness. Yeah, you have a specific waterproof garment for that
But you accept that whatever you're wearing is going to get wet either because it's got rain or because
In swimming in it or because of sweat
So you want something that's going to dry and you want something that's going to breathe
So it reduces that feeling of being sweaty
Um
Those I think will be my watch words and then it's down to your designers to make sure it fits properly
Um, you know and and minimize any chafing so you don't want it fitting too tight under the arms
You want to make sure there's plenty of room
Um, you know for movement
Uh, it depends what you're doing. I'm presumably you're talking about something that's going to be active wear
So work with that
Um, you know, and
Yeah, sort of the right materials
Uh, can make all the difference
Uh, really can um and test test it test it test it. Yeah, um, yeah, don't don't just yeah and test it under all circumstances
Don't just believe the you know the what someone tells you about oh this material can do there
Go and test it in those environments and make sure it can
Yeah, that sounds all like solid advice. Thank you very much
Yeah, you're welcome
Okay, well, I've taken up far too much of your time. I'm sure
It's been a pleasure, Matthew. Thank you very much for reaching out and Logan interview. It was awesome
Yeah, you're welcome. I'll be very interested to see the comments underneath. I suspect there'll be mostly abusive
What one of the things you recognize is that when you run something like the defense clothing team you are nobody's friend
Everybody's got a reason to why whatever it is you're doing you're doing it wrong
Because everybody's an expert and yeah, and yeah
Yeah, we we did yeah, you do get things wrong, um, but I hope we've got more rights than we've got wrong
It certainly seems to those guys who yeah, well be nice to think so
It's been so so it was it was a fascinating
fascinating time and I feel that sort of
I was able to yeah make some huge changes
Most of which I think we're for the better and I think which
Directly impacted soldiers on operations for the better. I think which is that something is I'm quite proud about it
Absolutely, I think that that is a hundred percent something to be proud of making a difference
Yeah, thank you very much. I've got one for you
If I may share so
How does UK kit compare with what you see other nations kit on the us kit because the UK guy will tell you that the kit
He's got's been made by the lowest bidding contractor. It's worse materials has been poorly designed
But obviously we only see what we wear
You know for us the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence
So what from your perspective as someone who's probably slightly neutral seeing different nations kit
Who do you think actually has the best equipment or standout pieces of equipment?
Well
It's tough because I don't have as much as many hours inside of any of the kit as someone else might especially a full-time soldier
um
I will say from the limited experience
I've had wearing various nations kit out like backpacking or hiking or shooting or any of that kind of stuff
um
The UK's has been the most comfortable especially in terms of outerwear and just like with the smock on that back backing trip
I took recently
I mean there's so many features that are thoughtful like if you're out in the field and you're sitting down
I don't know making dinner and it's
10 degrees Celsius you just sitting there waiting for your meal to cook
If least lined pockets are fantastic or um a windproof material
If it's 30 or 40 mile an hour winds outside that comes in super handy for retaining heat
um
So
I'd say the British kit I haven't had much experience with other current issue
Kit from other nations maybe Austria's another one or France is another one that I have more experience with
But I'd say that generally in terms of design it seems like a lot of them are heading in the same direction
Um, like looking at yeah, like looking at the newer generations of French uniforms
um
Can't remember it was I think they just call it new generation their
pants and their size. Yes. Yeah, they're they're very very similar to what I'm seeing with the UK
Yes, yeah, they've gone for the their previous
Clothing was sort of it looked like it came out of a spray can
Yeah, it's incredibly tight trousers
You know, so I sometimes wondered what they were trying to say not but the uh, but now they
No, they they've they've gone for a much more baggy
Look, they've sort of taken on the sort of like the windproof trousers and smock style. I think which we have um
You know, so you know, it seems to be the way, but yeah, no interesting, but so yeah um
So it's sort of from what I've seen the um the US
Kit seems to be well made
Very very heavily engineered
Not necessarily in a bad way um
So things like the sort of the bellows and the back
for allowing arm movement
Uh and things like that seem to be well thought out and I think we could probably
Put some thought into that if only more money could be spent
Um because at the end of the day, you know, you're fighting against budgets all the time
Um, you know about what what can be afforded by the front line commands by the army the navy and the air force
And that can be a struggle. So yeah, the interest and sort of
See some of those. Yeah, and actually says try and get a best of everybody's
And you probably end up with the worst of all
Don't be interested to see anyway
Okay, that would be an interesting experiment, but yeah, yeah, those are those are my thoughts anyway
Yeah, okay
Well, it's time to sign off now because um is late in the evening here and I need to uh go and cook some food
So uh Logan, thank you very much indeed for having me on um
I'd be interested to sort of see people's comments and feedbacks as I say most of it will be useful. I'm sure
That's uh the interest to see
You see but but interested to sort of get the views from your audience of the subjects we've discussed and uh absolutely
I wish
I wish you luck editing it as well. Thank you very much Matthew. I once again
I appreciate you going on and it was an absolute pleasure
Hope you have a good rest your evening no problem and you too enjoy your day. Take care. Bye. Bye